Under and Over with Denise Rossetti

1. Eleni Said,

   Denise - the thought never crossed my mind Great topic - I do think that people of size 12 and above or largely ignored to be the heroine and that’s why I think Queen Latifah is wonderful — she’s breaking the rules and is so comfortable in her own skin. And on ya for placing a true size woman in your book. I must admit to being a plump lady myself, so it’s nice to see indeed. Hmmm as for the loviest compliment…. I liked the fact that it was about me as a person and not my size - basically they thought I was wonderful. well duh! of course I am (not modest much am I )

   As for characters, I always remember Diana Gabaldon’s description of Clare’s rump - and how Jamie loves it. Probably a reason I so love Jamie!

2. Dani Said,

   It’s great that you’re writing about a rubenesque woman Denise. Being one myself it makes me proud because I don’t find too many authors that write these stories. Cathie linz’s book Big Girls Don’t Cry is the first paperback that I’ve ever seen about a plus-size woman as the heroine in a story. I know that there are more out there (even in e-book format), but I haven’t found very many of them (yet).

   The nicest compliment I’ve ever gotten was a total stranger telling me that I had a beautiful face, a bright smile and I was such a nice girl. Usually when I got that from my family it was followed by, “now if you’d just lose some weight everything would match.” You have no idea how sick I used to get after hearing that. What a bring me down from the start of a nice compliment. When they said it I’d just smile say thanks and walk away, so as to avoid a family arguement. LOL!

3. Susan Said,

   Oh dear Denise, you’ve touched a sore point here I’m afraid and you’ll pay for it with bad verse I am plump, well endowed, generously proportioned, yea, even fat at times and I have yet to read a good description of a heroine large in size who convinced me, or one I really liked either. I occasionally wonder whether it is my prejudice coming out - or the author’s. (Does that sound like a threat? Id wasn’t meant to…) So my first reaction came out as a rant, and my second restored my sunnier sense. Having spewed to myself, I am ambivalent about whether I want to air that in public, but I think every woman has many aspects, and we should celebrate most of them (yes, so me things are best kept you one’s self). But you pressed my button and this came out:

   Oh yes, a woman of size…
   To compliment, mention her eyes.
   I’ve yet to give an author a prize,
   for not giving me a rise.

   I’ve read, you see, too many descriptions
   by authors I feel will get conniptions,
   if they contaminate their dictions
   with large size women in their fictions.

   I feel their hate, when it comes to the pinch
   they seem to feel that just one extra inch
   they’ll have their own waistline to cinch
   and they can’t contain their inner grinch.

   We pick it up early at school!
   Children know now to make you feel a fool,
   they send the message, state the rule:
   If you are different they’ll be cruel.

   And what’s so unutterably sad
   It’s mostly women who are bad
   Always wanting to be a tad
   superior, they make me mad.

   I like to eat, don’t get me wrong,
   but don’t give me dance and song,
   my own demons use their prong,
   and to be slim they make me long.

4. Susan Said,

   And then the balanced, sane, sexy, happy, quirky me came to the rescue, so you get a double dose of bad poetry :

   My skin is soft, silky and clear
   My breasts are pretty big my dear
   My hips are wider than they appear.

   My laugh is deep – it can be a giggle
   and yes, that sometimes makes me jiggle,
   then again, wait till you see me wiggle.

   I dance my way through life.
   I let my smile turn away strife,
   although others’ prejudice is rife.

   I like to celebrate my senses:
   to eat, to smell, to burn my fences,
   to touch to ‘em all, go past pretenses.

   Regardless how others may see my size,
   For one man I’ll always be the prize,
   that brings a joyful gleam into his eyes.

5. Kim S. Said,

   WOW Susan! Great job on both!!

   Dani, the same was said to me growing up too! As I’m well past kid age, guess they’ve given up!

   Eleni!! LOVE Jamie!! LOVE how Jamie loves Claire!!

   I’ve just finished Marilyn Lee’s Full Figured books, and loved them!! We BBW love to read about someone other than the ‘perfect’ size ones gettin’ some lovin’!!! Bella Andre does a great job with her women of size too!

   The only compliment I’ve gotten is “Your hair is such a pretty color, is it natural?” As I am a natural red head, and hearing about my hair all my life, it’s kind of like “Duhhhh, yep it is! Is that all there is to me?” No one EVER says anything about below my neck!

6. Clynax Said,

   I stand 6 feet in my stocking feet and could be termed voluptous. I have received a lot of comments on my size throughout the years. Terms such as amazon, stallion, and my least favorite-a well built brick s@$t house have been directed towards me. I admit to feeling less than special at times. But now my love stands at 6 feet 5 inches and is a well built 350 pounds. He makes me feel all fragile and girly. He finds me sexy and tells me I am perfect. It don’t get better than that!!!

   It’s good to see heroines starting to be more the size of most people you see on the street. The heroine in S. Kenyon’s Night Play was full figured and she was awesome. Vane thought she was wonderful and sexy. I loved that about him.

   I am glad you are writing about a full figured woman. I will love her just as much as Fort, Fledge, Jan and Mirry. Here’s to women whatever their size!

7. Denise Said,

   Eleni, OF COURSE you’re wonderful - we all know that!

   And yes, there’s a lot to be said for a good haunch, something you can get your teeth into. *ahem* I also have to say it works both ways. I don’t find slim men particularly attractive, not that a big wobbly belly overhanging the pants does much for me either. But a substantial man (like My Beloved) - *sigh* I like something to hang on to. So while David Tennant is awfully cute, that’s it for me.

8. Denise Said,

   Dani, Ellora’s Cave actually have a special category for Rubenesque books! How ’bout that? http://www.ellorascave.com/BookList.asp?Category=Rubenesque

   And yes, isn’t it lovely to receive a compliment with no strings attached. All too often, our nearest and dearest just have to stick that “but…” on the end. Spoils the whole thing, IMO.

9. Denise Said,

   Susan, I think we’ll have to christen you the Poet Without Laureate! How you can just pump ‘em out like that is beyond me.

   I love the idea of a deep sexy laugh and the joyful gleam in your man’s eyes. If you’ve got that (and your health), it doesn’t matter two hoots what size you are, does it? Lucky you.

10. Denise Said,

    Oh Kim, don’t be like that! If we met, I’d gush over your hair too. I LOVE red hair (think of Trey from GIFT OF THE GODDESS). Brown is so, um, ordinary - or my brown certainly is. I used to work with a woman who had the most spectacular red hair, in long thick waves almost down to her waist. Truly her crowning glory.

    *note to self* Be sure to tell Kim she’s a BBW from the neck down when we meet.

    And thanks for the reading recommendations!

11. Denise Said,

    Clynax, you said -

    He finds me sexy and tells me I am perfect. It don’t get better than that!!!

    You’re right, it doesn’t! True love builds and supports the loved one, it doesn’t tear them down. What a perfectly delightful man you have. The two of you sound rather like I imagine Meg and John, two big people who are beautifully matched, physically and emotionally.

    And thanks for the reading recommendations!

12. Eleni Said,

    ooh forgot to mention Meg Cabot’s “Size 12 is not fat” - just love the title.

    Susan - great job wordsmith
    Dani - yes i’ve heard the “but” too - thank goodness it only seems to have been only a couple of people who have said it
    Kim - Jamie is way ahead of his time with his displays of affection. Also agree with Denise about the hair
    Clynx - glad you found your Mr Right that makes you feel good about you
    Denise - yep not into skinny guys either and I really do like Meg and John already….

13. mary de Said,

    leaning toward the ‘voluptuous’ size myself, though not fat, I hated having boobs in sixth class when other girls ……
    ‘had fronts flatter than their backs.’ (that phrase came from a guy in high school who got stuck into a group of …Y*&^!** girls’s…. who were into teasing) and he made me feel normal and the special one. From then on I appreciated who I was AND Realized what a trasure ‘they’ really were o men….
    I revel in my voluptuality now although the women in my stories are who they are. Both large and small statured. Their personality carrys them.

    ‘One hand lowered to her heaving chest, grasping the full weight of her heavy breast, while his other trailed over the ample, yet firm, flesh of her stomach nefore following the contoured dip at her waist then his finger dug into one generous mound of her soft, pliable rear.’
    See… bigger people can be sexy too…..
    Maryde

14. mary de Said,

    oh dear….only if one checks ones spelling mistakes more closely…
    maryde

15. Hannah Said,

    Interesting blog topic, Denise…. coming from someone who’s 5ft in all directions (me) I would hazard to say that I forget (multiple times every day) that I’m not size 12. And then I get enormously suprised when I catch myself in a window reflection or something. I stopped being disappointed by these glimpses a long time ago but I continue to be truly suprised. Same if someone mentions my weight. I’m often suprised, I just FORGET!

    So when it comes to reading, the heroines miraculously morph between pages into a size that roughly resembles my mental image of myself. Regardless of how they’re written. Shortish, a bit curvey, but always, always healthy. And stacked :)

    I downloaded a couple of ‘reubenesques’ from two e-book suppliers (one of which who shall remain nameless to protect the innocent) and neither story had particuarly overweight heroines (or heroes). So I’m keen to check out the recommended authors from your readers and see how I go identifying with BBW heroines. I have a sneaking suspicion I’ll just shrink them to fit my mental mold.

    Wierd, huh!

    *Hannah*

16. Susan Said,

    Also Denise, because once I get started it is very hard to get me to shut up, I don’t like the word “Rubenesque”. Or come to that the separate category… The first, I think, because I spent an hour in the Louvre in the room with the Catherine da Medici cycle by Rubens, and yes, he sure loved flesh, but they all had such pursed petulant mouths, it put me off the painter for good. The second because it seems like a warning - Content might be offensive to some readers: large size heroine. If you see what I mean. Given the size of the population in general more rather than fewer heroines should be large size, but our prejudices haven’t come up to face the reality. This goes throughout society in general and doctors in particular: yes, I know that weight is correlated with a number of health problems, but nobody differentiates between fit and healthy overweight, who exercises regularly and eats a varied diet and whose tests are all normal from any other. If you are thin, then the doctor might ask if you live a sedentary lifestyle or how often you exercise. If you are overweight, everyone assumes you are a lazy slob who spends their entire time snacking. (Oh no, another rant: at least this is in prose). I will now shut up.

17. Amy Andrews Said,

    Oooh sorry but I adore the term Rubenesque. Having also been to the Lourve I think his paintings celebrated women with all their lumps and bumps and glory.
    My 2c.
    From someone who could be described as rather Rubenesque herself.

18. Hannah Said,

    Curvalicious? Lumpoid? Undulatorious? Roundesque? How’s them for some words, Denise??

19. Denise Said,

    Here’s Eleni’s blog - http://eleni-konstantine.blogspot.com I extracted it from her with menaces.

20. Denise Said,

    Nice one, Maryde! Thanks for sharing. Don’t worry about the spelling - we’re kewl.

    Isn’t it wonderful, the difference one discerning appreciative person can make to a whole life? I bet that boy (who is now a man) has a very happy woman in his life.

21. Denise Said,

    Welcome to you, Hannah! And no, I don’t think you’re weird. We all read with our mental and emotional filters firmly in place. I don’t have the same mirror problem with weight as much as with age. When did I turn into my mother? (Darling woman though she is.) OTOH, I continue to be surprised that I can no longer sit down in my favourite tight black leather pants. How did that happen?

22. Denise Said,

    Hi Susan. I’m sure someone who knows more about Art will correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t a rosebud mouth considered a sign of beauty? Times have certainly changed!

    As for Rubenesque, I imagine publishers use the term in hopes of attracting more readers. From what others have said here, looks like they’re can be a bit indiscriminate with it too. Rather like erotic getting slapped on everything with a sex scene in it.

    I remember My Beloved discussing a newspaper article with me recently that said it was healthier to be fat (-ish - NOT obese) and well-exercised and well-nourished, than to be skinny and sedentary and flabby. Came as a bit of shock to shrimp woman here.

23. Denise Said,

    Ah Amy, my Rubenesque mate, don’t think there’s any question he appreciated women! Wonder what he’d make of Queen Latifah - or Megan Gale?

24. Denise Said,

    *snork* Hannah, they’re cute! Not sure lumpoid would come out a compliment, but curvalicious - that’s terrific! Are you a writer, by any chance? heh heh

25. Joey Said,

    Susan, loved that second poem particularly. Beautifully done. Someone grabbed my word earlier, but I’ll repeat it here - Amazon. I have no Rubenesque characters to date, to my knowledge, but I have a rather tall one. In Mirror of My Soul, in a crime scene toward the rather traumatic end, here’s my heroine, Marguerite:

    “When Tyler reached the circle of policemen, a new police car arrived at the scene, lights going but siren off. Tina Moorefield exploded out of the backseat when the policewoman opened it. As her gaze darted around the crime scene, Marguerite straightened from the hood of the car, drawing the frantic mother’s attention and just about everyone else’s, as only a nearly six-foot-tall blonde could, particularly one whose hands were stained with blood and who held a young child as if she weighed no more than an infant. Tina cried out and ran to them, her arms already out.”

    Denise has a wonderful character in Gift of the Goddess, Anje, who also has that Amazon warrior woman characteristic. I thought of this connection because of how Denise described Queen Latifah - there is a confidence she carries, as if her size is actually linked to the size of her soul inside, the fierce and indomitable nature of it. Good topic…

26. Tina Purcell Said,

    A dear friend of mine once told me I was a triple threat. When I asked what he meant, he said “you’re beautiful, funny, and you have depth”. I was flattered, but the devil in me couldn’t resist asking if that “depth” was in reference to the size of my a**. He laughed, and said “See? That’s exactly what I mean. And for the record I meant you have depth of character”. Then he spins me around to give me the universal male once over and finishes with “but you gotta thank the Lawd for things like that”. As a full figured woman, it probably wasn’t the most eloquent compliment I’ve recieved but it was memorable and sincere. Voluputuous heroines aren’t as prevalent as they should be, but Laura Kinsale’s Seize the Fire and Suddenly You by Lisa Kleypas are excellent reads.
    Thank you Denise. I’m sure your heroine in Unlaced will do us Thick Madames proud!

27. Denise Said,

    Oh Joey, Marguerite is a fabulous character, the way she carries herself is truly Amazonian. (In fact, Ice Queen and Mirror of My Soul are unbelievable books - unbelievably good, I mean. )The battles she fights, in her life and in her soul take such courage, Ahh… I suspect the warrior queens, say like Boadecia, would be proud to admit her to the ranks.

    Thanks for the compliment about Anje. She’s tall and athletic and she’s had a warrior’s training. A real kick-ass heroine. (Which is why Fledge turned out so different.) I do think there’s a great deal to be said for the confidence physical competence provides. I remember - vividly - being at a self-defence class for women years ago. The instructor, who was built very much as I imagine Anje, but not as tall, was speaking to us about walking down the street, head held high. “Imagine,” she said quietly, “the confidence it gives me to know I could kill a man with my bare hands - if I had to.” I was both appalled and fascinated. And as you see, I’ve never forgotten it. Must blog about that class some day.

28. Denise Said,

    Welcome to you, Tina! Dunno about not eloquent - seemed pretty eloquent to me! What a truly gorgeous man. I would have been tempted to jump him in sheer gratitude. And as we’ve seen here in other comments, it only takes one experience like that to set you up for life.

    Thanks too, for the reading recommendations. And now I’m worried Meg won’t cut it as a BBW. Oh dear. Her size isn’t a huge (sorry) part of the story. It’s just a fact about her. She’s a big girl. I imagine her figure as Like Megan Gale’s rather than Queen Latifah’s, but with a few extra pounds.

29. Amy Andrews Said,

    Min in Jennifer Crusie’s Bet Me is a buxom woman - she got a RITA for that. In fact most of her heroines are real sizes.
    I remember her cautioning all of us that saw her speak in Sydney about the power of writers and to not screw with the heads of the women we write for by impossible-sized, barbie-esque heroines. Keep them real was her advice.
    God I love that woman.

30. Denise Said,

    Amy - how could I have forgotten Jennifer Crusie? And the donuts in Bet Me. heh heh WE BOTH MET HER, you know? Not bragging or anything. She and the brilliant Anne Stuart came to the Romance Writers of Australia conference last year as keynote speakers. Lord, they were inspirational. Amy got to be Jenny’s BFF for a while. Uh, that’s Best Female Friend - I asked DD.

31. Susan Said,

    Well Denise and Joey, I loved Marguerite too, and the way she survived the horror of her childhood and made something beautiful of her world, then opened herself up in her relationship with Tyler was very moving indeed. So I’m particularly honoured that an author I like so much liked my throwaway verses. I agree a woman who has strength in body and mind is a wonderful thing.
    I guess my previous posts came over angry, because it is an issue that makes me angry. It is something that comlete strangers feel they have the right to comment about to you: Don’t you think you need to lose weight? And almost all the books I have read where the heroine has started out well endowed, have only used that to “reform” her later and have her “miraculously” lose her weight. The discussion here has given me quite a list for my TBR pile.
    As for Rubens, a rosebud mouth was fashionable and he was very good at what he did, but he was not to my taste at all. I do love Renoir’s plump ladies, also Van Dyke’s and Da Vinci’s solid women. It is not the depiction of flesh that bothers me, but the style of the painting is something I personally do not like. Well that and labels too…
    But thanks Denise for opening up this discussion. It has been enlightening to hear other opinions and also to realise how much anger the issue still brings up for me. Obviously something I need to address in my own growth.

32. Eleni Said,

    Yes Denise, one of my dad’s specialist was saying to us in a consult that it it better to be fit and plump than be thinner but not fit. But Susan, you are so right about people’s perceptions in thinking that someone who is cuvilicous (love it Hannah!) eats more and doesn’t exercise etc.
    Actually years ago a friend of mine was having a piece of cake at a coffee shop had someone come up to them to that they didn’t need that. I just thought excuse me??!!!!!:mad: I wonder if that same person would say that to someone who was unfit, unhealthy but thin — i think not.
    The wheel will turn again my friends… curvilicous will be IN again!
    (And Denise - thanks for reminding me that I should promote my home in cyberspace )

33. Denise Said,

    Susan and Eleni, sadly, there are tactless people the world over. Some feel they have the right to criticise you to your face, whether it be about your weight or the way you’re raising your kids. Doesn’t matter, they’ll find something. It makes them feel superior, you see.

    Others try to be helpful, but make an appalling hash of it. I know a man who said earnestly to a slightly buck-toothed woman at a party, “You know, I have the name of really terrific dentist. I’m sure he could fix those teeth.” He was completely bemused when she ran off sobbing. He’s a well-meaning person, but has all the empathy of a table leg.

    Eleanor Roosevelt said, “No one can put you down without your co-operation.” It’s something I try always to remember and I find I’m getting better at it with age. There’s hope for me yet.

34. Dani Said,

    Denise, thanks for the link to Ellora’s Cave. I had no idea that they had a rubenesque line. I’ve got the link in my favorites to look at more when I have the time.

    Susan, your poetry is beautiful. I loved reading both pieces.

    Kim, I’m well past kid age too, but some in the family won’t give up and leave it be.

    Eleni, I’ve only heard one stranger tell her husband (as I was walking out of the room mind you) that I had such a pretty simle and would be beautiful if I were thinner. I’ve also had people say to me and a friend that we didn’t need to be eating something that we were eating. I told the person that if they didn’t like it they didn’t have to watch! I’m not always shy about what I tell someone that pisses me off. LOL!

    Hannah, I though I was the only one to make the heroine look more like me (in my mind of course).

35. Zana Said,

    What a great discussion. My book “Forbidden Frontier” comes out in April and Charlotte Badger, the heroine is a big woman. Some publishers didn’t like that but I didn’t want to give her literary liposuction and bless Harlequin Australia for accepting that. She was a real life pirate so of course she couldn’t be a frail little thing. The book is set in 1800 Australia. Here’s an excerpt after she and Liam, the blacksmith, have just made love for the first time.

    Liam gathered me up onto his chest and pulled off my cap so my hair spilled over him. He wrapped a strand about his finger.
    “Soft and golden as wheat’s tassel,” he murmured. “And feel the weight of you, woman, I love the abundance.”
    “There’s many a man afraid of my size,” I said as dryly as I could for all that I was flushed and throbbing and feeling faintly ridiculous, lying thus like a milkmaid at harvest time.
    “I’m not one to be daunted by size,” Liam laughed, “I’d be a fine smithy if I were. No, I like it. I am weary of worlds of want. Look how we measure bounty - in weight. Gold, in weight, crops in weight.” His voice grew drowsy. “A farmer takes joy in plump cows, round sheep. Grains of wheat must be fat. I’m tired of scrawny children and women worn away to nought. I ache for mounds and valleys and soft flesh to burrow into. There is no joy in mating with a woman spiky with bones.” He gave a deep sigh of contentment.

    Glad to know there are women out there who’ll also appreciate Charlotte’s size.

36. Denise Said,

    Good on you, Dani. *cheering*

37. Denise Said,

    Oh, Zana, what beautiful writing! Thank you so much for sharing it with us.

    But - do you have a link? There’ll be folk wanting to buy your book after that gorgeous taste. You can paste a link in the body of your comment and it will work. Or put it in the website field when you post and it goes from your name. Like mine.

    Come on, don’t be shy!

38. Hannah Said,

    GOD LOVE YOU, ZANA! What great sentiment reflected in your books. If it wasn’t already on my list for the fascination factor of the setting/period I’d put it there for the hooray factor of a buxome heroine. Really looking forward to it.

    AMY - haven’t heard that quote from Jen Crusie but completely bow to it. What a great, and simple reminder to us all about our own social responsibility. Now the challenge is to do the same for men and the not-easily-attainable model we’re setting up there!!

    Regarding the comments that others feel forced to make about weight and eating habits… I have a beautiful friend, Sian, who is genetically scrawny. She eats like a horse (a horse with a burger addiction) and works out (weights only) to build mass. I think she has five meals a day to manage her (under)weight. I’ve been out with her and heard people say “ugh… someone give the woman a sandwitch” or “you know where all her meals end up” (and then made a two-fingers-down-the-throat gesture). Appalling!! So its not just us BBW who are the brunt of those who cannot feel good about themselves unless putting someone else down…. so sad.

    So… the message I’m getting loud and clear is that HEALTHY is in. For the heroines and heroes, regardless of what size or shape the package comes in. That’s not a bad rule-of-thumb.

39. Denise Said,

    Zana tells me she doesn’t have a website as yet. But she’ll keep us to date with all the publication details.

    Hannah, I have a naturally slim, fine-boned friend who’s had a few of “those” comments. Some people’s rudeness and heedless cruelty simply take my breath away. What satisfaction it must provide for their tiny minds, to feel so superior! It’s pretty comforting to be self-righteous.

    As for heroes with less than toned bodies… When I was a writer-newbie, I wrote a story called A Creature of Habit. (Click the link to read it - and remember, I wrote it ages ago.) The hero is fat, flabby and about fifty. It grew out of my belief that there’s someone for everyone - and I mean everyone! Contest judges HATED it. Boy, did I get panned! *chuckle* Apparently, you can’t have romance unless you’re young, taut and gorgeous. Hmpf!

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